The Art of Persuasion

The Art of Persuasion


hi its Jill Schlesinger on this episode
of Jill on money what is the one thing you want to be known for what is your
master narrative the truth of the matter is whether you own your master narrative
not you have one because all decisions about us are made when we’re not in the
room and so when you’re not in the room what do people say about you you want to
know what it is and you want to help shape it and define it
welcome to the Jill on Money podcast we are presented by Marcus by Goldman Sachs
you know every day at work I am asked to be a translator of complicated financial
topics off air we all are doing the same thing we are communicating with one
another and we are sometimes communicating with people who see us in
a very different way than we see ourselves our guest Lee Hartley Carter
has written a really interesting book called persuasion convincing others when
facts don’t seem to matter much of this interview is about your interaction with
people you work with you live with and how you can actually better work with
those people to kind of get a sense of who you really are I think you’ll really
enjoy it I know I did here’s our conversation with Lee Hartley Carter
you’re listening to Jill on money with Jill Schlesinger so we like to start the
podcast off with a simple question and you ready for it
it’s the pressures on right now what is the best career or financial decision
you’ve ever made the best career decision I ever made happened about 13
years ago I was in I was in financial services marketing it was fine but it
wasn’t really exciting me and energizing me anymore and so I decided to go out
and find something I was really passionate about and it took me a while
to find that thing but I did and I went for it and that to me was everything so
tell us a little bit about yourself like worried you grow up alright I grew up in
New Jersey I heard of it it’s the Gordon’s day it is the Garden State
really bad mass transit really really bad mass transit and also
Garden State they do have amazing Tomatoes an amazing corn and no one
really knows that about New Jersey oh all right okay yeah Jersey corn earlier
in the season I’m a Long Island corn person we do later in the season there
you go okay so you grew up in New Jersey and you go off to college what did you
study I studied history and sociology I always
had a passion for language at the dinner table I would always ask questions like
what do you think the difference is between a nerd a geek a dweeb and a
loser they sound like they’re the same thing but each one very different visual
in your mind so the power of language and messaging always played big in my
life I always loved reading I always was passionate about about words and I was
also passionate about politics and so that sort of informed a lot of my
early life that then led later to me switching careers to do what I do now
okay so talk about the politics stuff we’re your parents political or not at
all no my Porter folks do my mom was a
stay-at-home mom she’s an artist and my father was in the electronics business
so not a political family at all my grandparents much more politically
involved and engaged I have a great-grandfather who’s a congressman so
it may be skipped a few generations and I I was always passionate about it I was
a total geek about politics when I was in high school the kind of first how
what did you do it’s the chairman of Young Republicans of New Jersey you know
the guy I know living in New York so yeah and they buy that so what is it
about politics that intrigued you you know so much of politics is about
messaging you can be inspired and raised to the you know to the heavens by a
great speech and I grew up under you know Ronald Reagan was president when I
was young and I just used to feel so proud to be an American when he spoke
then you saw the divisive nasaw just really the power of speech the power of
leadership so much about it appealed to me and I also it was a form of a way to
connect with others too by talking about it having conversations about it
debating it used to be that we had debates about these kinds of things when
we were younger not even when were younger it used to be that you had
debates about politics in general and it was we might disagree on tactics but we
both what’s best for the country and that’s
that’s really faded and that sad to me the part of persuasion which I found
interesting as you lay it out is that there is almost a science that you talk
about in a process that you help your clients but also anybody really
understand that this begins with having an appreciation for where that other
person is coming from and empathy and so why is that so important in the world of
persuading so most often when we’re trying to persuade we just think about
what we want to say we create an objective we say this is what I want to
accomplish I want people to hire me I want people to vote for me I want people
to buy my products and hear all the reasons why somebody should buy my
product they never really slow down and say what does that other person that I’m
trying to talk to need where are they coming from what do they feel about this
issue what do they feel about this product what do they feel about anything
why do they feel that way without doing that you’re gonna start giving a laundry
list of facts a laundry list of proof points and you’re gonna be speaking in
some ways just right over the head of the other person until you stop and slow
down and say where is this person coming from because it’s only once you get to
that other person’s mindset they’re really going to be able to change hearts
minds and meet them where they are and you’re right whomever it is you need to
persuade be it the City Council or your in-laws in a way that truly resonates
makes you matter know your customer without judgment without snark and you
say the golden rule of communicating talk to your audience as they are not as
you want them to be can you give us an example of like the difference between
those two ways of thinking about it I’ve done a lot of work in financial services
for example oftentimes people will develop a financial product and they’ll
have this really technical idea and why it’s so important so let’s just talk
about variable annuities for let’s god I hate them I hate them and everyone in
the insurance industry hates me for hating them so much okay and that’s fair
so you can but a lot of people would go out there and say let’s talk about
guaranteed income for life because that’s the benefit that’s why we built
these things right but the truth of the matter is peep
aren’t sitting out there saying you know what I wish I had I wish I had
guaranteed income for life because most people in retirement aren’t thinking
about an income anymore because they already have their pool of money that’s
not the way they think about the what they are looking for what they’re
looking for instead is protected growth they want their money to grow and they
want protection and they want to know that it’s going to be there for them
when they need it so we helped our clients in the variable annuity industry
say let’s stop talking about as guaranteed income for life it’s what
everybody was talking about instead let’s talking about protected growth
strategies and now that’s largely taken over the industry and the difference
between it is one is speaking about the benefit of the product to the insurers
this we developed it for guaranteed income for life the other is what is the
person looking for what is the person who’s investing looking for and what
they’re looking for is protected growth of course but they don’t know that it
comes with a fat fee that they’ll be paying forever and that they could do it
in another way they could do it in another way I think the thing that they
also some people are willing to make that trade-off say sure are true I don’t
worry about it right I want to pay someone to worry so
that I don’t have to exactly all right I got that that’s fair enough let’s talk
about empathy and persuasion let’s do it like on a micro-level in the book I talk
about this whole thing about emotional empathy it’s built on the change
triangle the change triangle basically says we have positive emotions that
serve as a biological function and then there’s these inhibitory emotions those
are shame anxiety and shame and anxiety will keep us from doing anything
productive so if you put somebody either into shame or into anxiety so you can
fact them by shaming them and say like you don’t know this isn’t absolutely
true or you can start giving the facts on how much trouble they’re gonna be and
if they don’t start investing now if they don’t do things differently those
two things are gonna make people defensive and not do what you want them
to do what you want to do instead is put them in emotions that are make them
biologically want to do something so you get some people angry and they’re gonna
say there’s a problem in you solve but don’t put them in shape or anxiety and
there’s a difference so now let’s talk about the story part because you talked
about empathy and we do a lot you like a deep dive into empathy and then you also
bring storytelling into it and you say that the visual markers and storytelling
become incredibly important in the art of persuasion how so
our minds don’t necessarily remember facts in the same way that we remember
stories in the same way that remember visuals they say that a picture’s worth
a thousand words all of these kinds of things with persuasion what you want to
do is create a lasting impression it takes a while for us to change
somebody’s mind so you want to have something that’s gonna stick when you
wrap data in storytelling it just allows us to sit with it to think about it and
it Creed’s sort of a almost like a pneumonic structure for us to remember
things in likewise visuals are so important and that doesn’t necessarily
even mean you have to have a clear picture but I talked about the power of
visual language and even symbols so if you think about for example Starbucks
years ago when Howard Schultz first came back the first time he came back to
reset Starbucks they had lost their way a lot of people complained about the
quality of the coffee they said it tasted burn it wasn’t as good as it used
to be he came back instead of saying I’m back and we’re gonna have better coffee
again he said I’m back and I’m gonna close the
doors of every Starbucks for an afternoon and we’re gonna teach every
Brister to make the perfect cup of coffee there was something very visual
and symbolic and symbolic gesture that’s really powerful and really lasts with
all of us much longer than if he just came back and said I’m gonna make you
know restore the quality of our coffee likewise you see this in politics Donald
Trump didn’t say he’s gonna get tough on immigration he said he’s gonna build a
wall you know Elizabeth Warren right now she’s out there talking about she
doesn’t have a million policies out there her whole thing is she’s got a
plan for that I’ve got a plan for that as a t-shirt and that becomes her own
sort of symbol of creating wonkiness into a into a symbol and so I think when
we can try and find ways not just to talk about your policy or your point of
view or your products but to create a visual or a symbol it allows us to
really connect with it in a different way how importantly you know you talk
about authenticity in your book you know we always taught here about that in the
workplace like bring your authentic self to work I’m like you don’t want my
friggin authentic self on the television thank you very much you want a part of
that you don’t want the whole thing so can you talk a little bit about why
that’s important in the idea of communicating in general we all have
weaknesses we all have strengths we are most connected
two things that we love the good and the bad of them if there is a weakness that
you have if there is a you know a fatal flaw if there is an elephant in the room
acknowledging it embracing it making a part of your narrative I think is more
powerful than ignoring it I think that we don’t necessarily love the perfect
anymore when you see something it’s too perfect we don’t believe it or we don’t
trust it and so oftentimes now I think some of the best communicators and the
best persuaders frankly own their flaws I think about Hillary Clinton when she
was running for president there was an authenticity gap I would say and who she
was but there were a couple moments during
her campaign that I thought were so breakthrough for her that I wished she
had done more of she was asked a lot about how it felt to be criticized or
all of these dividends and she always say well I don’t listen to my critics I
don’t listen to my critics and then there was one moment and I think it
might have been with Stephen Colbert not exactly sure who the interview was but
she said you know what it hurts my feelings it really hurts my feelings and
it’s hard I try to tune it out but when I can’t it’s just it’s terrible I just
thought wow where is that person where is that person she also did an interview
with Ellen DeGeneres she was wearing her blue pantsuit and this little girl came
out and wanted to she said that when she grew up she wanted to be president
United States and the Hillary gave her a little blue pantsuit and the little girl
came out wearing this plant single pearls it was like the best thing
because it was totally just embracing who she was and not running away from it
giant trying to make it something else and I think those are the moments when
you have a real authentic connection that creates a real powerful dynamic
between us and that’s what you’re looking to have happen tell us about
what you do right now for a living in the company and so that people know
where you’re coming from yeah so my company is called Miz Lansky and
partners we are what we call a language strategy company and our whole
philosophy is it’s not what you say that matters it’s what people hear so our job
is really to help companies and associations communicate more
effectively on the issues that matter most to them
this isn’t about putting lipstick on a pig our these are companies that have
good products good services good things to say we’re just trying to help them
say it in a way that’s going to matter and
things you know have an impact that they should have in addition to that I also
out there talking to voters trying to understand what’s resonating and why so
in the 2015-2016 election cycle for better for worse and regardless of how
this makes you feel the research that we did predicted that Donald Trump was
going to be the nominee on the Republican side and then ultimately
president and now in this election cycle and doing the same thing on the Democrat
side and so do you get paid for doing that research and where you guys are
just doing it for like the heck of it and it’s kind of cool so I don’t get
paid by any politician and we don’t get paid for the political work that we do I
think that what we believe and what I believe strongly is it helps us
understand the zeitgeist it helps us understand what’s out there and how
people are feeling in general and that only helps us be more effective because
as I’ve been talking about one of the most important parts of our job is to
understand people why they are the way they are why they feel the way they feel
why they believe what they believe and why they do what they do and this is
definitely something helps us do that so that’s interesting I didn’t realize that
it was not for pay and so when you go on various television outlets to discuss
this you’re just saying this is your proprietary research and that’s what you
found and that’s illuminating and all of that right okay now question about the
clients do you turn clients down when you’re like yeah that’s a gross business
I don’t want to do that cuz you’re a private company right yes we do so what
is the metric by which you decide not to take the client so we will not take a
client that our values don’t align with and you know my company despite the fact
that I was the chairman and Republicans I would say 98% of my companies
Democrats at this point so if their values don’t align with our values we
won’t take on a project and we also give our team if there’s something that’s
controversial we give our team the right to say you know how they feel about it
but for the most part we don’t we don’t get involved in anything related to
tobacco we don’t get involved in anything related to guns we don’t get
involved in anything related to abortion and then there’s some other things along
the way that we’ve had to make decisions on and say this just isn’t right there’s
also some companies along the way that we’ve said you know what this isn’t
necessarily the kind of company we want to be involved with
this is Jill on money hi I’m Jill Schlesinger certified financial planner
CBS News business analyst and host of this the Jill on money podcast I’m here
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Marcus com forward slash Jill you can money for JD power 2019 award
information go to JD Power comm slash awards and now back to our interview
with Lee Hartley Carter so when you’re thinking about a crisis management
because you’ve got an interesting chapter about that and it made me think
a lot back to financial services tell me what you thought about the financial
service industry in general the response to the financial crisis grade their
performance in the in the immediate aftermath I would give them an F but
this is what happens in crisis I always say our first instincts that crisis are
absolutely wrong because we’re defensive and so instead of trying to get why
everybody in the world was so upset which we were all so upset because
everything trust crumbled in a you know in a day everything we trusted was gone
the bailout money needed to be given out people were angry and instead of
individual companies saying you know what we understand why you’re so upset
we understand trust been broken they were like it wasn’t me those guys are
worse than I was yeah it was a few bad actors over here instead of
acknowledging like wow you guys lost your whole retirement savings over night
it doesn’t matter who was responsible it was the industry as a whole people were
upside down and nobody was acknowledging it we were doing focus groups with
investors and they were so angry and the people the executives in the in the
banks and the financial institutions that we were working with are like but
don’t they understand that we actually paid back the feel out money I know that
was the funniest response ever because I was like that means nothing nothing with
interest that’s what they always said we paid everything back with interest the
government made money on us we were the first ones to pay back that money here’s
so you’ve already made so much money that you can pay it back my sake folio
hasn’t recovered yet and it was just it was so tone-deaf and it took a long time
for people to gain trust back and it’s still not there it still comes out when
you’re talking to investors sometimes there’s they’re burned so I had a really
funny reaction to it because I felt like nobody was owning it and after being in
the client service business for so many years I thought you know the way you
always gain ground in a bad situation is oh my god we blew it totally right if
you don’t start by acknowledging the concern you will not pass go if you are
in crisis whether that’s in your personal life or whether that’s in your
professional life or whether it’s as a whole company if you don’t say I get it
I hurt you in some way now let’s talk about how to move forward if you don’t
acknowledge and validate that concern you’re not going anywhere and it’s funny
because you’re right people they get defensive and then you say the other
problem is they start piling on facts like oh I paid back the money and here’s
the interest in here’s hauser my 20 but the facts are irrelevant in that
particular moment maybe down the line right we can sprinkle it down so can you
describe the master narrative and how how important that is to know what
you’re trying to get across so I always say that when we’re communicating it’s
better to have one point that you’re trying to make than a million points
it’s like a thousand points of light versus one major spotlight and when we
are communicating oftentimes we do is communicate with tons of different facts
and lots of different information to try and make our point on why we’re a good
company why were good people why we should have a share our point of view
and that’s not nearly as effective if you distill it down to what’s the one
thing that you want take away from that so with a
pharmaceutical company for example what’s the one thing that they need to
get people to know to help to rebuild their reputation it is number one that
they are actually inventing the cures that are going to you know save lives if
they could just get people to understand that then the rest of it would be less
of a problem not no problem because they said they’re gonna problems so right
you’re wrong so they have to either one thing and that’s inventing for life or
however you want to talk about it in those different ways
likewise in politics if somebody has a one thing a master narrative you will
always remember the candidate that won because you will remember their master
narrative what Donald Trump it was make America great again with Barack Obama it
was hope and change you’ll remember what it was because when somebody has a
really strong master narrative it sticks out it’s memorable the best one that I
can think of right now that we all know is Nike just do it it
sticks and it’s more than a tagline it is the theme it is the anthem it is that
one thing that every time you show up that’s gonna be your one thing and it’s
gonna make everything else stick it’s so true it’s really interesting should
individuals have mastered narratives just like walking through your day job
like should mark my producer mark let’s get your master narrative all right
there he is should we do this yes really I think there there’s a lot of reasons
for it but certainly if you’re ever going through a career transition if
you’re trying to get promoted if you’re trying to get a new job in your career
in your personal life it happens anyway we’re all known for something whether we
like it or not so you might as well own it what are you known for Lee I would
say my my master narrative the thing I’m most proud of saying that I’m really
scrappy I’ve always said since I was a little girl the whole thing is like I
might not know how to do it but I’m gonna get it done
if you give it to me I’m gonna get it done and get it done well what’s the
downside of that sometimes you don’t say no when you need to and sometimes you
need to admit what you don’t know so I’ve learned how to to work around those
two weaknesses that come along with us but the truth of the matter is whether
you own your master narrative not you have one because all decisions about us
are made when we’re not in the room and so when you’re not in the room what
do people say about you you want to know what it is
and you want to help shape it and define it when you tell that story about
getting your 360 back and what that what that felt like and tell that is like the
the narrative is established whether or not you like it or not yeah so a few
years ago at our firm we did 360 reviews which allows all of your peers to give
feedback on how you’re doing I wanted to know how I was doing I was hopeful that
I was gonna get to the next stage of my career at the time was a partner in my
firm but I wasn’t in a leadership position beyond that and I wanted to the
next step and so I got this feedback and I was hopeful that I would get some good
feedback that could help me be a better leader the feedback that I got was that
people viewed me as a leader but not a very good one
and that was really tough I think in large part because people viewed me more
as a friend than a leader and that’s a leadership style it’s very dangerous
when you’re too close to friendship you can’t be a good leader so that was one
thing and that surprised me the second thing is I am very good at getting new
business but the the downside to that was that many people had thought that I
was using my looks to get any business that was so weird that came back as a
360 attained back and this was pre me too well I’ll tell you in a second why
what we write where I got to that where it came from and a third piece was at
the time I had been going through some fertility related challenges and I had
been out of the office a bunch and so people had been filling in those gaps by
saying she’s not presents who slacker they didn’t know where I was I always
tell people if you’re anything that’s left ambiguous is gonna be interpreted
negatively that’s just the way it goes right so those are the three pieces of
data it was really tough feedback and I was heartbroken I would cry I’m quite
about to cry right now cuz I’m like sitting in your shoes and saying how
hard that must feel but to feel like that from your colleagues yeah I almost
couldn’t go back to work I hear I went home my CEO gave me the feedback and he
said I just want you know this would be really tough but I’ve got your back and
I think if he hadn’t done that I might not be here today like it was it was so
heartbreaking and I had a decision make I say either I got to get curious about
what this is all about or I gotta go find another job but things can’t stay
the same I cried I thought about quitting I
thought about reaching out to headhunters I don’t know what to do and
then I thought no I love what I do I’ve got to be able to turn this around this
is God let me look into this what what is this feedback all about the first one
about leadership style is like you know what you’re right I’ve got to stop being
friends with everybody mm-hmm that’s number one because if I
want to be a leader I gotta send myself home before everybody gets drunk at
happy hour and I’ve got to start doing things a little bit differently
the second piece and that was really difficult for me the the piece about
using my looks for new business and then I started thinking about it and I said
you know what there was a client who in front of my colleagues asked me to go up
to his mini bar for a drink while we were all out and then there was another
client who hit on me in front of others and then there’s another client that
touched my face in front of people it was really bizarre stuff they were all
sort of similar kinds of people and so there became a joke at the company and I
didn’t know how to I didn’t know how to deal with it besides make a joke out of
it cuz I thought it was right what do you do hello that’s what we used to do
we made a joke out of it or else he would be called like you’re so oh don’t
get your you know you’re so sensitive yeah so then there was this ongoing joke
a new client would come in and they’d be like oh that’s what Elise and I are like
ha ha ha and so I realized that it became part of my narrative it became a
thing that people were saying about me and it was a joke but it wasn’t funny
and then the third piece was I understood why people if you don’t see
someone there all the time you don’t know where they are got to do it so got
in front of everybody and I said listen I got your feedback I want you to know I
love it here more than anything and I’m committed to turning it around and I
heard three major themes here’s what they are I repeated them back I said one
you as leader and not a very good one and that’s gonna change you want me to
do more thought leadership you want me to be more of a leader that’s starting
now number two I heard what you said about new business and it breaks my
heart because I’m really good at what I do and for you to think that I use my
looks to do anything related to it makes me sick but I get it I said I thought a
lot about it and I heard what you said I’m gonna ask you to join me in never
making a joke again about it fine hitting on me I’ve made the jokes you’ve
made the jokes that stops today we’re done anybody ever does it again I will
stop you in her tracks it is wrong and is unambiguously wrong
and I will reject it and it is no longer acceptable here and the third thing is I
need you guys to know that I had a surgery it went wrong and it’s been
really hard for me and I should have told you but from now on I’m gonna put
it on my calendar all my doctor’s appointments and you’ll know where I am
without without any question and that’s where I’ve been and outside of those
doctor’s appointments I will be here and I’ll be present it was a reset moment it
changed everything and within a year and a half it really
really turned the corner but it’s great that’s hard so hard but that’s the power
of I think authenticity and vulnerability and all of these things
are so important to persuasion I think and that goes back to the point in
crisis communications acknowledging people’s concerns and owning them yep
and if I didn’t it never would have changed when you see like a big
something I get Equifax data breach or in the Wells Fargo fiasco
what do you think is the what is the CEOs job in that moment to say buck
stops here it’s me what should be happening because it feels like not
enough happens in that moment or something like sort of hand hand it
happens but then you know the guy loses his job you know after being under
hauled under the congressional subcommittees like what is it that
should be going on in that crisis management I think the thing that
happens the most which is the most unfortunate thing is that the lawyers
take charge yes all messaging all actions all everything gets lowered to
death lawyers are important but the bottom line is there’s a financial risk
associated with legal risk there’s not necessarily a financial risk that they
see today that’s associated with communications risk and so
communications gets so watered down in those moments that we have no idea what
to believe we have no idea what to think people are afraid to apologize they’re
afraid to own it they’re afraid to say that it’s never gonna happen again
they’re afraid to talk about the actions that they’re taking so we’re just
looking at this blur and say wow that sounds awfully legalese and I’m afraid
that they’re not doing the right thing by me I don’t trust them and their stock
prices plummeting in the mean time and so I think that what companies need to
do better elevate the role of communications in
those moments to be equal to the lawyers right it’s almost like you want the
communications people and the legal team to talk about this and to say well
what’s our risk if we say it this way there is a formula and you know every
company has a crisis playbook somewhere on a shelf that says this is what you
must say if a data breach happens is what you must say if you know somebody
goes to jail this is what you must say they exist but the problem is there’s
not really a playbook for every scenario as it happens and as it happens fear
gets involved emotions get involved and everybody is saying well if we say that
then they might think this if we say that then legal might say this instead
what we need to do is say there’s a formula here and it works almost every
time number one we need to acknowledge concerns let’s start there how can we
acknowledge concerns in a way that’s legally okay yeah but most companies
won’t even start by acknowledging concerns in any way shape or form you’ve
got to start there the second thing that people need to do is know what actions
are you going to take to change behavior so if we’re talking about Equifax
there’s a data breach what actions are happening right now that are keeping
people’s data safe and what can they take there’s always something you can be
talking about but the formula is always there why people don’t don’t follow it
is baffling to me but I think the truth of the matter is it rests because of the
legal risk right and it’s also I don’t want to go and venture into this place
where I’m so uncomfortable and acknowledging that and if I can hang it
on the lawyers ugh lawyers won’t let me do it totally this happened to me
because I called someone up about an article that was written and I said I’d
like to bring you on to my show to talk about it it’s a great opportunity no
lawyers won’t let me do it it’s like so silly all right I got to let you go I
mean we could be sitting here talking for hours and hours and hours so let’s
do some fun stuff first of all before we let you go we started the interview and
I asked you hey what is the best personal finance or career decision you
made and you’re like it was kind of great to get out of financial services
and follow your passion what was the worst decision that you made the worst
decision that I made oh boy I’ve made a lot of bad decisions just pick one of
them you know what the worse the worst financial decision
that I made is after the financial crisis and my my portfolio got hammered
I pulled my money in cash for a long time because I was afraid and that’s
just dumb that was not a great I was I mean I was young you’re listening to
Jill on money okay it’s time for the Marcus minute presented by Marcus by
Goldman Sachs today in the hot seat is author and President Lee Hartley Carter
okay Lee you’re ready to play I’m ready here we go what’s one word to describe
your relationship with money complicated what’s always worth spending on shoes
what’s the dumbest thing you’ve spent money on shoes how much do you spend on
a haircut a hundred dollars that’s cheap whose face would you put on the dollar
bill ah I know it’s a hard one I’m sort of like Washington’s fine yeah no watch
it’s totally fine what’s wrong with Washington it’s your last day on earth
you’ve got $100 that you didn’t spend on your haircut in your pocket what is your
last meal for $100 my last meal for $100 good night you know at my last it’s my
favorite meal I had growing up it’s steak on the grill in my family and
tater tots lovely the book is called persuasion convincing others when facts
don’t seem to matter the author is Lee Hartley Carter thank you for joining us
thank you so much thanks to Lee Hartley Carter remember we dropped new episodes
of Jill on money every Tuesday and Thursday and sometimes we throw in a
bonus as well remember if you’ve got a financial question we’d love to hear
from you ask Jill at Jill on money.com our music is composed by Joel Goodman
Marc Claire CO is our executive producer were distributed by cadence thirteen and
the show is presented by Marcus by Goldman Sachs
see you next week you

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